[WinMac] [Summary] Performance of Windows 95/98 on ASIP6
J Kmoch(kmoch[at]whscdp.whs.edu)
Thu, 06 Jan 2000 23:02:47 CDT
Thanks to all those on this and the mac-mgrs listserves on this question.
Here is my original question and the response tallies and actual responses
follow.
Joe
Original question:
I've been contacted by the director of a school being built. They are in
temporary quarters now. They have about 200 iBooks and iMacs. Their
consultants have recommended an NT server (which they haven't yet gotten to
work as a Mac server) because the school will also be getting about an equal
number of PCs for their higher grades.
I have suggested that ASIP6 would be a much better choice as a server for
the
usual reasons. They said that there will be performance problems for the
PCs
using an Apple server (I think they mean both hardware and software).
I scoured the archives of this list for some clues on the performance issue.
I
wasn't able to find much except that NT does not currently support IP
connections from Macs and that Macs perform better using ASIP6.
Does anyone have any experience using PCs on ASIP6 using SMB? More to the
point, has anyone come up with any performance comparisons?
I'd appreciate any help on this - I'd really like to see them go with ASIP6
to
avoid spending many $ trying to support NT (and this consulting firm).
--------
The responses: (ASIP +7, NT +4, no NT +1)
From: "Scott Fellman" <sfellman@gatewaygraphics.com>
Joe,
Services for Mac takes about 3 minutes to setup on an NT server...If your
consultants haven't been able to set this up I would be EXTREMELY concerned
about their knowledge of cross platform issues. Also, scan the list archive
for performance issues...I know I saw a thread on this three or four months
ago.
Good Luck
Scott Fellman
-----
From: Brent Sessions <BSESSIONS@niaid.nih.gov>
You are better off sticking with NT, depending on the environment they are
running the server in.
The simple fact is this: it is easier to get the Macs working with NT/SFM
than it is to get PC's running ASIP, or some other issue. We have the same
50/50 split, and we have a reliable setup here for over 1700 hosts. So it
does work. If they can't get it to work, it isn't a problem with the Macs,
it's a problem with the people they have configuring the server.
Also, don't let them use the NT server as an Appletalk router. Do that at
the router and just let the NTS do file and print services.
-----
From: "Jeff Johnson" <jjohnson@greendale.k12.wi.us>
One of the best local sources of info on this would be Dave Berry, a
MCSE/CNE very familiar with school networking issues and Macs. Dave now
works as a Systems Engineer for EDTECH, the Apple K-12 folks in WI.
His contact info:
dberry@wi.net or dberry@edtechweb.com
phone 335-3854
He lives in West Bend so scheduling a visit to Washington would certainly be
possible.
-----
From: Jeff Tharp <jtharp@moroch.com>
We use ASIP 6 and NT servers at our company. ASIP does have some issues
for PCs...some filenames do not match well across platforms. For
example, I find often if I have two documents on my PC, say "my doc.doc"
and "my other doc.doc", ASIP will act like these are the same
file...presumably it drops everything after the space. Also, remember
there are characters are a Mac that are legal for filenames that PCs
don't like...for example "/" often gets used as a character for Mac
filenames, but a PC won't see a file named with such correctly. Finally,
if your PCs are going to run any kind of database or other such files
where many people will be accessing the same file at once from the
server, I wouldn't recommend ASIP. We run 6.0 here...don't know if one
of the newer versions (.1, .2, etc) of ASIP fixes some of these bugs.
On the other hand... ;-)
NT's Services for Mac (SFM) which allows for AppleTalk connections has
it's own set of bugs. Make sure you either do Service Pack 3 with all
the hotfixes or even better, do Service Pack 5 or 6. Anything that is NT
Service Pack 3 (no hotfixes) or earlier has a ton of bugs for SFM. In
particular is the ever-popular "Bouncing Icons"...OS 8.0 or higher Macs
will have a problem with the icons duplicating themselves at seemingly
random intervals and with a random number of duplicates when you view an
SFM volume in List mode. The post-Service Pack 3 hotfixes or the later
Service Packs (4,5, or 6) will fix this. That is just one of the known
bugs with NT's SFM.
Finally, if you are also using your server to handle printing, I can't
speak for ASIP printing with PCs, but I know with NT, we setup print
queues for the PCs, but I find the Macs are happier printing directly to
the printer (we use Apple and HP networked laser printers) via AppleTalk.
Your milage may vary of course ;-)
-----
From: "Daniel L. Schwartz" <expresso@snip.net>
Time for a new consulting firm.
NT4/Server works just fine, thank you, as an AppleShare server. In fact,
it works better than either ASIP 6.x or OS-X Server, because NT uses NTFS
to store the two Mac file forks in a dual stream single file. And, NTFS =
Native Transactional File System... Neither HFS+ nor UFS provide journaling
file system support (although, surprisingly, BeOS does).
If file transfer speed is what you want, I routinely get close to 8
megabytes per second on switched 100Base-TX ethernet using MacServer IP.
And this product, along with the competing ExtremeZ-IP, provide AFP over IP
support. In addition, MacServer IP also supplies NT cluster failover support.
If you don't want to buy a third party AFP/IP product for NT4 (and they
work over NT/workstation as well), you can go with a basic Windows 2000
Server installation: It provides direct AppleShare IP 5.2 emulation.
If you want to have printer use accounting, then you'll need to run
through an NT spooler, and then you can fully control access as well as use
printer accounting tools.
-----
From: Seth Hendley Elgart <sethe@hewsongroup.com>
I've been in two jobs now where I ran PCs off an ASIP server. In both
places the users used the server with no complaints. It works. Period. I
can't give you numbers or comparisons, but I can say it's a breeze to set
up and you don't need a staff of eight to keep the server working or a
six week training course to learn how to turn the thing on. At my current
job I just finished moving the PC half of the company off a Netware
server and onto the AppleShare server and no one's complained yet (well,
they've complained some, but not about that). If the school gets an NT
server you should look for a new job because you won't be having any fun
there anymore.
-----
From: "MARK, JEFF N (PB)" <JNMARK@MSG.PACBELL.COM>
First, you are correct when you say that while ASIP supports SMB over
TCP/IP, NT Server 4.0 does NOT support SFM over TCP/IP. This means that you
must keep AppleTalk enabled AT THE NT SERVER as well as through any
appropriate routers. This is not desirable, since AppleTalk is a notoriously
noisy protocol. So there are GOOD NETWORK MANAGEMENT REASONS to use ASIP,
namely, it frees you from routing AppleTalk anywhere you don't actually need
it.
As far as the "performance problems" propaganda, I think it's baloney, and
since they (your consultant) are the ones recommending the system that will
either require AppleTalk throughout the network, or require some utility
(e.g., DAVE) on the Macs so they can talk to the NT server over TCP/IP, it
seems to me that *they* should be the ones to make the case, hopefully with
better facts than vague assertions of "performance problems". Remember, the
key point (and the one that makes the best case) is that while SFM from NT
is NOT available over TCP/IP, SMB from ASIP *is* available.
Oh, and while I'm at it, I manage an ASIP server that serves about 30 MacOS
users and about 50 NT users, and other than the point I'm about to mention,
no one's complained of "performance problems". Not with their computer,
anyway. I don't have any hard data, however.
The thing to watch out for is that Windows users should keep their ASIP user
IDs and passwords the same as their NT user IDs and passwords, and when they
change one password, they should promptly change the other. It makes the
AppleShare server almost totally transparent to the NT user. This does get a
little inconvenient for the NT user, however, and for you, when they forget
this, and call you to wonder why they can't access the ASIP server... (I may
be a bit hypersensitive about this part, since they make us change our NT
password every two months here.)
Also, maybe gently remind your consultant clones that for SFM to work on an
NT network, all the following must be enabled/installed:
1. SFM Installed
2. SFM enabled, started, and directories configured
3. AppleTalk routed AT THE SERVER as well as through all appropriate
routers. (I bet this is where they missed it.)
-----
From: Stan Diamond <sdiamond@ctr-boston.com>
On the one hand, NT4.0 works fine as a mixed platform file server.
All that needs to be done is to turn on Services for Macintosh in
"Services" and designate the volumes you want macs to access as Mac
volumes. (I believe this is done in the Hard Drive Manager of NT.
Using an ASIP 6.2 server for windows clients is, for me, more
problematic, but I may be overlooking something. I just installed an
ASIP 6.2 server on a G3 B&W 350. I turned on Services for Windows
and my windows machines can see and connect to this server. However
the response time is dreadfully slow. We have always used windows
clients on Apple Share servers so most of my windows machines have PC
Maclan installed. With Maclan, performance is fine with either ASIP
5.2 or 6.2, but directly connecting a windows machine to 6.2 is
totally unacceptable. Am I overlooking something?
-----
From: "Peter Wickenden" <pwickenden@sevenww.co.uk>
I can't help you with ASIP-to-PC but below are figures that might help your
argument. I had an NT4 foisted on me as a server for an all Mac network and
was able to prove immediately that it was not capable of giving us the
performance we required as the figures below show.
Because I had no choice, I searched out and opted for an IP server that
enabled me to shut down Microsoft's Services for Macintosh.
I used Helios LanTester to carry out the following tests averaged over 5
runs (SfM = Services for Macintosh; MsIP = Cyan MacServerIP; all figures in
seconds except where marked; all tests carried out from the same G3/266 in
OS8.1)...
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Local HD NT/SfM NT/MsIP
Create 100 files at 20kb 1.19 9.65 9.26
Open/Close 100 files 0.19 5.00 0.87
Remove 100 files 0.20 2.90 1.04
Write 30mb to file (kb/s) 4670.47 1078.27 8937.44
Read 30mb to file (kb/s) 7712.08 1335.15 7620.66
Lock/Unlock 4000 times 0.94 97.84 5.97
Read Directory/320 files 0.15 0.36 0.30
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I then carried similar tests to those reported previously...
Copy to/from Mac... 200mb TIFF 200 x1mb TIFFs
SfM to 100BaseTX Mac 3m13s 3m28s
100BaseTX Mac to MsIP 1m15s 2m41s
MsIP to 100BaseTX Mac 0m58s 1m32s
Opening RAID-based 200mb TIFF (MsIP) 1m33s
----------------------------------------------------------------
Some of the previous test results for comparison...
Twixt 2 100BaseTX Macs std Aptlk 2m40s
100BaseTX Mac to ASIPServer TCP/IP 0m40s
100BaseTX Mac to SfM 4m10s
100BaseTX Mac/Dave to SfM 1m43s 2m22s
SfM to 100BaseTX Mac/Dave 2m00s 2m18s
Opening RAID-based 200mb TIFF (Dave) 1m57s
----------------------------------------------------------------
The MacServerIP tests were run without switching SfM off, doing so improved
on these results. Other things that stabilised and/or improved performance
included OS8.6 (ie latest OpenTransport), I believe switching off
auto-sensing at the card and running full duplex at card and hub will
probably help even further.
Cyan are at www.cyansoft.de (and not to be confused with the US-based Cyan
games producer.
A study of the above will show you that ASIP6 is the fastest Mac server
solution and that MacServerIP came a close second, if you have to be NT
based. As someone who had never touched Windows before, MsIP was pretty easy
to set up and well supported (via e-mail).
Fortunately I do not have a PC on this network to test, although I'd love to
see some ASIP v NT figures!
-----
From: William Perez <techdir@axiomny.com>
goto the AppleShare IP page and you'll see benchmarks comparing ASIP
to NT Server so you can see the difference between Mac and PC clients
in both situations:
http://www.apple.com/appleshareip/text/performance.html
------
From: Brad Hyman <bhyman@uswest.com>
Joe, I work for US West Communication and are successfully using 9
AppleShare IP 6.x servers in a Windows NT/Win9X environment. While I have
not actually measured performance myself, it is fast.
Apple has done quite a bit of bench mark measuring and found ASIP 6.X to
be faster that a Windows NT server for both Mac and PC clients.
http://www.apple.com/appleshareip/text/performance.html
-----
From: wkearney@gilman.edu
We've got 450 machines; 80 of which are Macintoshes. Getting them to
interoperate with "live files" on an ASIP server has been a nightmare. So
bad of a nightmare that we've actually setup an ASIP server for JUST the
Macintosh users. All others are on several different NT servers.
The ASIP services for SMB are pretty bad.
Your mileage may vary but I've got 1500+ users, 450+ machines, 12 servers
running a mix of NT, Netware, AIX, linux and Win9x and ONE with
MacOS9/ASIP6.3.1. I've had nothing but hassles with attempting to get
Macintoshes to simlutaneously access files from a server that also has PCs.
The real crux of the problem lies in how PCs use normal data files and the
Macintosh "sometimes" needs to use "forked resource files".
Go with the NT server. ASIP just isn't industrial strength (and MacOSX
ain't ready for prime time)
-----
From: Steve Mansfield <steve@cross-platform.co.uk>
Well, IMHO actual initial cost is only a small part of the cost /
benefit equation. The ASIP box is undoubtably going to be easier to
administer, will have better performance for the Windoze clients than
the NT box for Macs (lack of a multi-threaded AppleTalk stack) but
will cost maybe twice as much ie $4000 ish versus $2000 ish although
YMWV due to licencing differences.
The only way NT gets in ahead of ASIP if people just look at those
initial numbers
-----
From: "Alatorre, Michael" <michael.alatorre@cshs.org>
I cannot give you performance comparisons for the Wintel boxes using our
ASIP 6.2 server over a non-switched 10BT network (soon to be 100BT
Switched). However, I can share the experience of having Macs and PCs share
the same ASIP server:
- most of the PC users do not notice or say the ASIP box is only negligibly
slower than the NT servers they connect to
(all say that it's not a hindrance in doing their work)
- AFM over IP is much, much faster for your Macs than SFM over
AppleTalk--your Macs pay the price in performance
for switching
- all users, especially those on PCs, like that fact share points and folder
privileges can be setup by me in minutes
rather than the much longer turnaround for similar requests to the NT
admins (granted the NT admins have more
responsibility managing a whole bunch of NT servers on campus and it'll
take them awhile to handle network share
requests)
- keep in mind that there is some things to get use to: even if you setup
WINS registry properly, the ASIP may not be
seen in the Network Neighborhood; you can find the server with Find
Computer... using the node_name; we typically
set up a shortcut on users desktops for those you only occasionally need
access and map a network drive
(\\node_name\sharepoint) for those who make heavy use of the server
- files on the ASIP server that are hidden (icon files, scan logs, etc.) to
the Macs are displayed on the PCs
- there is currently no way that I know of to use NT Domain Security on
ASIP, and no way for your PC users to change
their own password from their workstations; we attempt to have our users
keep their ASIP and NT password
synchronized, then they only have to remember one password at a time;
however, to do this they need access to a Mac.
I've heard from other ASIP admins that they keep old 68K machines just to
do this duty
Like everything else is in life and engineering, it's all a matter of
trade-offs. For the most part, for our workgroups, ASIP is the more
manageable solution. YMMV.
-----
From: reboyd <reboyd@tenet.edu>
See MacWorld Feb, 1999, page 40. ASIP is over twice as fast as NT.
We've been running ASIP since March 1998. We're running ASIP on a
G3 and an old 8500/200. They are file servers, web servers and print
servers for all kinds of Macs and PCs. Setup is trivial compared to NT
4.0.
The only problem we've had is when the monitor goes to sleep sometimes
the server will not wakeup. We use an old monitor that doesn't go to
sleep.
When it burns out, we'll put another old monitor on the server.
R.E.Boyd, MCSE
-----
From: "Alatorre, Michael" <michael.alatorre@cshs.org>
if you have an IP for the server you can get to it from the Windows machine.
you should have a node_name associated with that IP in DNS. if you do a
query using that IP on DNS you should be able to resolve the node_name with
a freeware utility that handles DNS queries. OTTool 1.1 from Neon software
is simple, good and free for download (http://www.neon.com). enter the IP in
the Query DNS box, click on the DNS button and you should get the node_name.
remember however, that Windows File Sharing must be active on the ASIP box:
- open and login to the Web & File Admin application on the AppleShare
server
- from the menu click Server...Web & File Server Settings...
- from the pull-down menu, select Windows File Sharing
- Enable Windows File Sharing (SMB) must be checked off
- enter the node_name in Server Name
- enter anything you like in Workgroup
- give any kind of description (ie, ASIP)
- if your network is running WINS (Windows Internet Naming Service, it
converts NetBIOS names to IP addresses and allows
Windows machines on one LAN segment to locate Windows machines on other
LAN segments by name), have your Network
Admin give you the IP of the primary WINS server
- you then have to restart the ASIP server I believe
For your own benefit, your ASIP 6.* is less than 6.2, upgrade it to version.
It's free (except to also having to run OS 8.6). You'll get the benefit of
some bug fixes to ASIP 6.
Try this to log on from the Wintel machine:
- click Start...Find...Computer
- enter the node_name (or the IP address) and then hit Enter
- you should see a computer name come up, double-click on that icon
- the server should ask you (or the user of the machine) to log on
- once your in, you can right click on any sharepoint and select Map Network
Drive to make it easier for the user to get there; or,
create a Shortcut of the sharepoint. that'll work as well.
Hope this helps.
--
Joe Kmoch Washington High School
kmoch@whs.edu 2525 N. Sherman Blvd
(414) 449-2765 (office) Milwaukee, WI 53210
(414) 444-9250 (fax) (414) 444-9760 (gen school phone)
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